1 00:00:14,609 --> 00:00:11,940 on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks 2 00:00:17,249 --> 00:00:14,619 with atheist and author dr. Victor 3 00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:17,259 Stenger and that's the problem these 4 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:18,910 people are charlatans who are claiming 5 00:00:25,830 --> 00:00:23,410 that that there's evidence for a quantum 6 00:00:27,690 --> 00:00:25,840 aspect of the mind that's just not true 7 00:00:29,580 --> 00:00:27,700 maybe they'll find one someday we're 8 00:00:31,679 --> 00:00:29,590 open to that but they just do not have a 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:31,689 date it to support that and they don't 10 00:00:36,959 --> 00:00:34,210 have the theory to support that you're 11 00:00:39,780 --> 00:00:36,969 not saying Christophe Kok is a charlatan 12 00:00:41,849 --> 00:00:39,790 or Stuart Hameroff is a charlatan since 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:41,859 I assume so who are the charlatans I 14 00:00:45,419 --> 00:00:44,050 know that I know who's Stanley Crick 15 00:00:46,860 --> 00:00:45,429 there I know some of the other people 16 00:00:50,489 --> 00:00:46,870 that are on the list of people that used 17 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:50,499 an interview in the past I saw your list 18 00:00:56,340 --> 00:00:53,530 I'll tell you they're not part of any 19 00:00:58,279 --> 00:00:56,350 mainstream that I know of so do you 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:00:58,289 think Stanley Crippler is a charlatan 21 00:01:14,940 --> 00:01:00,210 absolutely 22 00:01:18,730 --> 00:01:17,200 welcome to skeptic aware we explore 23 00:01:20,890 --> 00:01:18,740 controversial science with leading 24 00:01:22,899 --> 00:01:20,900 researchers thinkers and their critics 25 00:01:25,750 --> 00:01:22,909 I'm your host Aleksic Harris and on this 26 00:01:28,210 --> 00:01:25,760 episode of skeptic Oh dr. Vik Stenger 27 00:01:31,990 --> 00:01:28,220 now there's a lot I could say about my 28 00:01:34,270 --> 00:01:32,000 dialogue with dr. stinger but I think he 29 00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:34,280 does a pretty good job of speaking up 30 00:01:41,050 --> 00:01:36,470 for himself let's get right to the 31 00:01:43,660 --> 00:01:41,060 interview today we welcome dr. Victor 32 00:01:45,639 --> 00:01:43,670 Stenger to skeptic Oh dr. Stenger is an 33 00:01:47,859 --> 00:01:45,649 adjunct professor of philosophy at the 34 00:01:50,469 --> 00:01:47,869 university of colorado but that's really 35 00:01:53,050 --> 00:01:50,479 a second academic career forum as he's 36 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:53,060 also professor emeritus in physics and 37 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:54,770 astronomy from the University of Hawaii 38 00:02:00,100 --> 00:01:57,170 he's also a very successful author 39 00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:00,110 having published 11 books including the 40 00:02:06,940 --> 00:02:03,500 2007 New York Times bestseller God the 41 00:02:10,270 --> 00:02:06,950 failed hypothesis how science shows that 42 00:02:13,090 --> 00:02:10,280 God does not exist and his latest book 43 00:02:15,490 --> 00:02:13,100 God and the folly of faith 44 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:15,500 welcome to skeptic avec thanks so much 45 00:02:21,550 --> 00:02:16,310 for joining me 46 00:02:24,250 --> 00:02:21,560 well I'm really great well I'm looking 47 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:24,260 forward to the to the discussion 48 00:02:27,670 --> 00:02:25,970 let's give folks a little bit of a 49 00:02:31,030 --> 00:02:27,680 background on you quite an impressive 50 00:02:34,270 --> 00:02:31,040 academic career well-respected in your 51 00:02:38,170 --> 00:02:34,280 field well published known but then you 52 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:38,180 also have this parallel career as one of 53 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:40,489 the founders really of this movement 54 00:02:46,990 --> 00:02:44,290 that's come to be known as New Atheism 55 00:02:49,270 --> 00:02:47,000 take us through a little bit of that in 56 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:49,280 in particular this interplay between 57 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:51,890 your academic career and then how you 58 00:02:57,340 --> 00:02:54,890 got interested in the Atheist movement 59 00:03:00,550 --> 00:02:57,350 and maybe along the way helped people 60 00:03:04,479 --> 00:03:00,560 understand what is a new atheist okay 61 00:03:06,849 --> 00:03:04,489 that's quite a large order but let me 62 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:06,859 let me get started and then don't 63 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:09,970 hesitate to interrupt me and and ask for 64 00:03:18,190 --> 00:03:16,730 the clarifying point but now I spent my 65 00:03:22,150 --> 00:03:18,200 career working in the field of 66 00:03:24,190 --> 00:03:22,160 elementary particle physics was very 67 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:24,200 much involved and all the activity that 68 00:03:29,740 --> 00:03:27,530 led to the eventual acceptance of what 69 00:03:32,170 --> 00:03:29,750 is called the standard model and then 70 00:03:35,890 --> 00:03:32,180 went more into astronomy and cosmology 71 00:03:38,470 --> 00:03:35,900 and then the 80s so my interest has 72 00:03:43,059 --> 00:03:38,480 always been a basic understanding of the 73 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:43,069 universe the nature of matter and you 74 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:45,050 know where what's everything all about 75 00:03:55,350 --> 00:03:49,970 fundamentally and so toward the end of 76 00:03:58,839 --> 00:03:55,360 the 80s and early 90s I started reading 77 00:04:02,949 --> 00:03:58,849 popular literature where people were 78 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:02,959 claiming that science supported a lot of 79 00:04:12,009 --> 00:04:03,650 ideas 80 00:04:15,309 --> 00:04:12,019 ESP and and quantum spirituality and and 81 00:04:17,770 --> 00:04:15,319 so on and then and so I started writing 82 00:04:20,140 --> 00:04:17,780 about that the early nineties that wrote 83 00:04:23,110 --> 00:04:20,150 a book called physics and psychics I 84 00:04:25,390 --> 00:04:23,120 wrote another book called the 85 00:04:29,980 --> 00:04:25,400 unconscious quantum which challenged the 86 00:04:33,219 --> 00:04:29,990 idea that there's a quantum element to 87 00:04:35,050 --> 00:04:33,229 thinking and then I gradually moved more 88 00:04:38,230 --> 00:04:35,060 and more toward the religious thing 89 00:04:39,310 --> 00:04:38,240 because I found out a lot of the there 90 00:04:42,390 --> 00:04:39,320 was a lot of literature out there 91 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:42,400 claiming scientific evidence for God and 92 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:45,970 so I wrote a book has science found God 93 00:04:52,029 --> 00:04:49,130 and then I wrote God the failed 94 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:52,039 hypothesis which was a very successful 95 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:53,570 book it made the New York Times 96 00:05:00,159 --> 00:04:56,810 bestseller list in 2007 so that's kind 97 00:05:03,340 --> 00:05:00,169 of my like my main book my biggest hit 98 00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:03,350 if it's called hate and then back with 99 00:05:08,230 --> 00:05:06,350 new atheism which discussed the whole 100 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:08,240 new atheist movement that had begun 101 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:13,130 around night around 2006 first with San 102 00:05:21,219 --> 00:05:16,970 Paris's bestseller on the end of face 103 00:05:21,879 --> 00:05:21,229 and that was a 2006 in 2007 my book came 104 00:05:26,860 --> 00:05:21,889 out 105 00:05:30,790 --> 00:05:26,870 also Richard Dawkins book and a year 106 00:05:33,190 --> 00:05:30,800 later Daniel Dennett and those and 107 00:05:35,409 --> 00:05:33,200 Christopher Hitchens of course was God 108 00:05:37,959 --> 00:05:35,419 is not great held religion poisons 109 00:05:40,629 --> 00:05:37,969 everything and those four authors 110 00:05:41,409 --> 00:05:40,639 to be known as the Four Horsemen of the 111 00:05:43,899 --> 00:05:41,419 New Atheism 112 00:05:46,209 --> 00:05:43,909 and so then I wrote a book called the 113 00:05:48,729 --> 00:05:46,219 dubious atheism about their ideas I kind 114 00:05:51,639 --> 00:05:48,739 of included myself since I'd had also 115 00:05:56,109 --> 00:05:51,649 written a best-seller during that same 116 00:05:58,539 --> 00:05:56,119 period and so I listed myself as kind of 117 00:06:01,569 --> 00:05:58,549 the stable man of the disabled boy of 118 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:01,579 the year well I think more than a 119 00:06:06,339 --> 00:06:03,889 stableboy but I think that's fair to to 120 00:06:10,449 --> 00:06:06,349 throw you in that lot you certainly make 121 00:06:12,969 --> 00:06:10,459 a very convincing argument for standing 122 00:06:16,329 --> 00:06:12,979 up to fuzzy thinking if you will and I 123 00:06:18,539 --> 00:06:16,339 like how you really push the point that 124 00:06:20,889 --> 00:06:18,549 we shouldn't give religious folks an 125 00:06:23,889 --> 00:06:20,899 intellectual free pass in this 126 00:06:26,109 --> 00:06:23,899 discussion and I imagine tell us a 127 00:06:28,689 --> 00:06:26,119 little bit about that and maybe why you 128 00:06:30,609 --> 00:06:28,699 felt that was necessary to really stand 129 00:06:33,249 --> 00:06:30,619 up and say that to what extent do we 130 00:06:35,289 --> 00:06:33,259 give folks a free pass just because they 131 00:06:37,989 --> 00:06:35,299 say this is my belief this is this is my 132 00:06:39,639 --> 00:06:37,999 religion this is what I tried to say was 133 00:06:40,269 --> 00:06:39,649 the major difference between the New 134 00:06:43,179 --> 00:06:40,279 Atheists 135 00:06:44,949 --> 00:06:43,189 and what might be called the old atheist 136 00:06:47,739 --> 00:06:44,959 so believe me I got a lot of flack from 137 00:06:51,459 --> 00:06:47,749 from all the way theists people who've 138 00:06:54,489 --> 00:06:51,469 been in the field of writing about 139 00:06:57,219 --> 00:06:54,499 atheism longer than I was and then they 140 00:06:59,259 --> 00:06:57,229 felt kind of couldn't kind of left out I 141 00:07:02,439 --> 00:06:59,269 should have included them but most of 142 00:07:04,179 --> 00:07:02,449 these people were more accommodationist 143 00:07:07,689 --> 00:07:04,189 toward religion they had the attitude 144 00:07:09,549 --> 00:07:07,699 that we had to go along with with the 145 00:07:10,959 --> 00:07:09,559 religion after all they're the majority 146 00:07:13,239 --> 00:07:10,969 we have to try to get them on our side 147 00:07:16,119 --> 00:07:13,249 especially with regard to things like 148 00:07:18,429 --> 00:07:16,129 the teaching of evolution in schools we 149 00:07:20,859 --> 00:07:18,439 needed their support scientists in 150 00:07:26,350 --> 00:07:20,869 particular or even even though most 151 00:07:27,959 --> 00:07:26,360 scientists are are atheistic only 7% of 152 00:07:31,359 --> 00:07:27,969 the National Academy of Sciences 153 00:07:34,989 --> 00:07:31,369 believes in a personal God and certainly 154 00:07:40,539 --> 00:07:34,999 a majority of people call themselves 155 00:07:43,569 --> 00:07:40,549 scientists also or non-believers but 156 00:07:46,389 --> 00:07:43,579 they all for the most part most all of 157 00:07:48,609 --> 00:07:46,399 them or want to avoid getting into any 158 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:48,619 conflict with with religion because 159 00:07:52,700 --> 00:07:51,330 they're worried about probably 160 00:07:54,439 --> 00:07:52,710 more than anything about support for 161 00:07:56,749 --> 00:07:54,449 science they don't want to lose some 162 00:07:59,420 --> 00:07:56,759 public support for science which after 163 00:08:02,510 --> 00:07:59,430 all requires a lot of tax money to 164 00:08:04,850 --> 00:08:02,520 proceed and we the the Four Horsemen I 165 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:04,860 did ponder that we saw the merits of 166 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:08,490 that argument that you you really want 167 00:08:16,540 --> 00:08:10,250 to try to get along much as possible 168 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:16,550 within society but I the way I tried to 169 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:22,050 explain it was that in the long run what 170 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:25,610 was important was to question the whole 171 00:08:31,879 --> 00:08:28,370 thinking process that's involved with 172 00:08:36,079 --> 00:08:31,889 religion because this is what makes 173 00:08:39,310 --> 00:08:36,089 people to believe in nonsense the idea 174 00:08:42,380 --> 00:08:39,320 that there can be something outside of 175 00:08:45,590 --> 00:08:42,390 your senses that for which there's 176 00:08:48,470 --> 00:08:45,600 absolutely no evidence is something that 177 00:08:52,850 --> 00:08:48,480 should not be just swept under the rug 178 00:08:54,650 --> 00:08:52,860 we should be willing to - Louie 179 00:08:57,860 --> 00:08:54,660 scientists should be willing to stand up 180 00:09:00,110 --> 00:08:57,870 and say look that's just not the 181 00:09:01,610 --> 00:09:00,120 scientific fact that you're talking 182 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:01,620 about there even though you're claiming 183 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:03,510 it isn't so that's if they didn't claim 184 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:07,050 if people didn't claim scientific 185 00:09:12,130 --> 00:09:09,810 support for before these ideas for 186 00:09:15,910 --> 00:09:12,140 things like ESP and quantum 187 00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:15,920 consciousness and in God for that matter 188 00:09:20,810 --> 00:09:18,510 then we wouldn't have a complaint but 189 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:20,820 well III agree with you on many of those 190 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:22,110 points I disagree with you and a lot of 191 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:23,850 them - but the part point I really want 192 00:09:29,509 --> 00:09:25,890 to focus on that I do agree with is that 193 00:09:31,670 --> 00:09:29,519 I don't think it helps to let that kind 194 00:09:34,730 --> 00:09:31,680 of fuzzy thinking stand and I think 195 00:09:36,860 --> 00:09:34,740 standing up for just saying we have to 196 00:09:38,449 --> 00:09:36,870 use this kind of method this kind of 197 00:09:40,810 --> 00:09:38,459 logic and reason to sort these things 198 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:40,820 out I don't know why we would want to 199 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:44,010 accommodate people and give them a free 200 00:09:48,079 --> 00:09:46,110 pass I don't know how that serves any 201 00:09:50,660 --> 00:09:48,089 good I think it plays into this kind of 202 00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:50,670 schizophrenia that we have about science 203 00:09:55,490 --> 00:09:53,550 as a society where we you know we only 204 00:09:57,829 --> 00:09:55,500 elect people that make these 205 00:09:59,389 --> 00:09:57,839 proclamations about their faith and yet 206 00:10:02,180 --> 00:09:59,399 at the same time I mean does anyone 207 00:10:04,410 --> 00:10:02,190 really believe that Obama is a Christian 208 00:10:07,110 --> 00:10:04,420 I don't think so so we have this kind of 209 00:10:10,050 --> 00:10:07,120 schizophrenia going on and I really 210 00:10:11,970 --> 00:10:10,060 applaud the efforts that you've made to 211 00:10:13,530 --> 00:10:11,980 kind of bring that out front and throw 212 00:10:17,790 --> 00:10:13,540 it on the table and say let's hash this 213 00:10:20,070 --> 00:10:17,800 out with the best methods that we give 214 00:10:23,070 --> 00:10:20,080 you a very specific example very central 215 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:23,080 example and that has to do with with 216 00:10:26,250 --> 00:10:24,970 evolution the scientific community 217 00:10:29,070 --> 00:10:26,260 including the National Academy of 218 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:29,080 Sciences is this and many other 219 00:10:33,810 --> 00:10:31,450 organizations have all made statements 220 00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:33,820 to the effect that there's no reason for 221 00:10:39,510 --> 00:10:37,120 people to to fear evolution that 222 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:39,520 evolution does not challenge religious 223 00:10:45,060 --> 00:10:42,610 belief and that's for all them and 224 00:10:49,580 --> 00:10:45,070 furthermore right furthermore most 225 00:10:55,530 --> 00:10:49,590 believers know what's wrong there was a 226 00:11:01,100 --> 00:10:55,540 there was a Gallup poll that showed that 227 00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:01,110 only 16% of Americans believe in in 228 00:11:06,270 --> 00:11:03,550 Darwinian evolution which is the random 229 00:11:12,330 --> 00:11:06,280 mutation evolution the rest either 230 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:12,340 believe in in creationism as described 231 00:11:19,050 --> 00:11:15,370 in the Bible the 6,000 year old the 232 00:11:23,510 --> 00:11:19,060 creationist theory or those who are 233 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:23,520 willing to accept evolution in terms of 234 00:11:30,630 --> 00:11:28,810 you want to be an old earth the life 235 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:30,640 evolved over million of billions of 236 00:11:36,690 --> 00:11:33,450 years they accept that but they still 237 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:36,700 they still say it's guided by God that's 238 00:11:42,570 --> 00:11:40,090 theistic evolution and if you look at 239 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:42,580 the 16% number that's exactly the number 240 00:11:48,810 --> 00:11:46,690 of people who who say they don't belong 241 00:11:51,950 --> 00:11:48,820 to any religion now of course it could 242 00:11:56,670 --> 00:11:51,960 be overlap but but it seems reasonable 243 00:12:00,840 --> 00:11:56,680 to suspect that most believers if not 244 00:12:09,269 --> 00:12:00,850 all believers and either don't believe 245 00:12:12,750 --> 00:12:09,279 in evolution at all or that's about 40 246 00:12:15,540 --> 00:12:12,760 believe it amount of Americans of the 247 00:12:18,569 --> 00:12:15,550 recent poll of 34 countries developed 248 00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:18,579 countries showed that only turkey of 249 00:12:22,410 --> 00:12:20,320 these 30 for developed countries only 250 00:12:27,090 --> 00:12:22,420 Turkey has a lower belief in evolution 251 00:12:28,769 --> 00:12:27,100 than than we do so these people who say 252 00:12:33,150 --> 00:12:28,779 they believe in evolution the moderate 253 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:33,160 Christians the Catholic Church what they 254 00:12:38,490 --> 00:12:34,810 really believe in is what's called 255 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:38,500 theistic evolution if you want to read 256 00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:40,570 about the istic rug rat the evolution 257 00:12:53,069 --> 00:12:50,210 Francis Collins the director of the 258 00:12:56,430 --> 00:12:53,079 National Institutes of Health's the 259 00:12:59,220 --> 00:12:56,440 language of God where he shows why he 260 00:13:01,829 --> 00:12:59,230 believes in God and when it's consistent 261 00:13:05,129 --> 00:13:01,839 with science and of course he's it he's 262 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:05,139 a very much Pro evolutionist the expert 263 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:06,610 on DNA leads 264 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:10,810 let the human genome project and yet 265 00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:14,050 he'll give you a good explanation of 266 00:13:18,540 --> 00:13:16,870 what is what a cystic evolution in other 267 00:13:20,910 --> 00:13:18,550 words God still behind it God just 268 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:20,920 happened to choose to do it this way if 269 00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:22,690 he threw the dice in other words he 270 00:13:29,699 --> 00:13:24,910 randomized the universe when he created 271 00:13:31,889 --> 00:13:29,709 it and let it just run but see when he 272 00:13:33,660 --> 00:13:31,899 was still there behind it directing it 273 00:13:35,819 --> 00:13:33,670 to make sure that humans evolved and 274 00:13:38,939 --> 00:13:35,829 that's the difference the difference is 275 00:13:44,129 --> 00:13:38,949 that in Darwinian evolution Humanity is 276 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:44,139 a pure accident that a few you started 277 00:13:50,970 --> 00:13:47,250 all over again humans wouldn't evolve 278 00:13:54,540 --> 00:13:50,980 the the world could still be filled with 279 00:13:57,300 --> 00:13:54,550 Dinosaurs if this wasn't that accidental 280 00:14:04,410 --> 00:13:57,310 asteroid that hit Hitler 65 million 281 00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:04,420 years ago so the idea that humans are 282 00:14:15,389 --> 00:14:08,649 are just accidental production of a 283 00:14:19,769 --> 00:14:15,399 random process is totally incompatible 284 00:14:21,569 --> 00:14:19,779 totally irreconcilable with the standard 285 00:14:22,830 --> 00:14:21,579 religious belief that he was a special 286 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:22,840 creations of God 287 00:14:27,810 --> 00:14:24,430 we are special that were destined for 288 00:14:31,019 --> 00:14:27,820 eternity and so on that's just so in 289 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:31,029 violation of Darwinian evolution and yet 290 00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:35,170 people still take that as a possibility 291 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:37,720 that God still created the whole thing 292 00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:39,310 to begin with oh that's not evolution 293 00:14:42,750 --> 00:14:41,230 that's intelligent design well you know 294 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:42,760 that relates to another point that I 295 00:14:47,730 --> 00:14:44,650 think you make very convincingly and 296 00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:47,740 that's this idea of exposing if you will 297 00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:50,950 the moderate Christian and maybe you 298 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:52,510 want to speak to that a little bit in 299 00:14:56,820 --> 00:14:54,690 how we can get into this 300 00:14:58,740 --> 00:14:56,830 accommodationist mode where we want to 301 00:15:00,769 --> 00:14:58,750 say oh gee things really are the same 302 00:15:03,060 --> 00:15:00,779 and I think maybe you just did that and 303 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:03,070 what you're saying is that when we 304 00:15:07,620 --> 00:15:05,290 really strip it down no there are some 305 00:15:09,390 --> 00:15:07,630 there are some fundamental differences 306 00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:09,400 that we really have to deal with and 307 00:15:15,210 --> 00:15:12,430 let's deal with them yes I I have had a 308 00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:15,220 long-standing argument with Eugenie 309 00:15:22,260 --> 00:15:20,140 Scott who's the director of the the 310 00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:22,270 National Center for Science education 311 00:15:29,310 --> 00:15:25,000 that which does wonderful work in in 312 00:15:31,890 --> 00:15:29,320 promoting evolution and keeping it in 313 00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:31,900 front on the front burner so that people 314 00:15:38,970 --> 00:15:36,100 know about it understand it and make 315 00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:38,980 sure that it it's taught in schools 316 00:15:44,780 --> 00:15:42,310 properly and my argument batteries he's 317 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:44,790 constantly making the statement that 318 00:15:50,250 --> 00:15:48,010 evolution is not does not contradict 319 00:15:51,810 --> 00:15:50,260 their religion and they see the same 320 00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:51,820 thing that's in the National Academy of 321 00:15:57,180 --> 00:15:54,190 Sciences and I might claim this is just 322 00:15:59,340 --> 00:15:57,190 wrong on my people and this is a big 323 00:16:01,620 --> 00:15:59,350 difference between God guided evolution 324 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:01,630 theistic evolution and natural 325 00:16:06,690 --> 00:16:03,550 naturalist what's called naturalist 326 00:16:09,420 --> 00:16:06,700 evolution where were God play any role 327 00:16:12,540 --> 00:16:09,430 in it at all right well you know that's 328 00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:12,550 great I mean we might not agree on much 329 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:15,040 else the rest of this interview but I 330 00:16:18,750 --> 00:16:17,050 certainly like the way that you approach 331 00:16:21,510 --> 00:16:18,760 these topics and I'd like to kind of 332 00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:21,520 take that approach and move it forward 333 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:23,560 as we talk to talk about a couple of the 334 00:16:28,380 --> 00:16:26,410 topics from your book God in the folly 335 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:28,390 of faith so next I guess I'd like to 336 00:16:34,020 --> 00:16:32,050 talk about consciousness and your take 337 00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:34,030 on the current state of consciousness 338 00:16:36,630 --> 00:16:36,160 research because I got to tell you we've 339 00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:36,640 had the 340 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:38,560 opportunity to interview some of the 341 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:41,050 world's leading neuroscientists and 342 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:43,210 particularly consciousness researchers 343 00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:46,570 people like Christoph cough Stuart 344 00:16:52,290 --> 00:16:49,360 Hameroff folks that if you go to the 345 00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:52,300 consciousness conference as these guys 346 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:53,710 are front and center some of the most 347 00:16:57,750 --> 00:16:55,690 prominent researchers and they're coming 348 00:17:01,200 --> 00:16:57,760 back and telling us hey wait a minute 349 00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:01,210 this materialistic very reductionistic 350 00:17:05,790 --> 00:17:03,190 idea we've had about consciousness 351 00:17:09,420 --> 00:17:05,800 probably isn't going to hold up here 352 00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:09,430 guys and we have to start looking beyond 353 00:17:15,660 --> 00:17:12,310 a material explanation for consciousness 354 00:17:19,230 --> 00:17:15,670 what is your take on the state of that 355 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:19,240 rule at all people he mentioned another 356 00:17:24,689 --> 00:17:22,290 another all representative of the neuro 357 00:17:29,190 --> 00:17:24,699 science community you mentioned Stuart 358 00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:29,200 Hameroff he's not even a neuroscientist 359 00:17:35,340 --> 00:17:32,470 he's he say is as far as I know he's an 360 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:35,350 anesthesiologist he's gotten off on this 361 00:17:45,390 --> 00:17:41,110 on this quantum thing with in which 362 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:45,400 there microtubules and in the brain that 363 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:49,890 carry quantum coherent notions around it 364 00:17:54,750 --> 00:17:52,810 they're a fringe element of the 365 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:54,760 consciousness community they have a lot 366 00:17:59,970 --> 00:17:57,610 of conferences and so on but you if you 367 00:18:03,000 --> 00:17:59,980 look at the the real neuroscience you 368 00:18:05,550 --> 00:18:03,010 find the people who write on 369 00:18:12,330 --> 00:18:05,560 neuroscience there's philosophers of 370 00:18:14,250 --> 00:18:12,340 mind none of them take that seriously 371 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:14,260 and it shouldn't be taken seriously 372 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:16,720 because there's absolutely no no basis 373 00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:19,450 whatsoever for saying that there's some 374 00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:21,310 quantum phenomena involved in the 375 00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:23,950 thinking process it's nonsense total 376 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:26,710 nonsense I think I got to push you a 377 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:28,330 little bit to back off from that I mean 378 00:18:35,460 --> 00:18:31,170 when you talk about Christoph cop he's 379 00:18:38,030 --> 00:18:35,470 you know Caltech professor if you go 380 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:38,040 through the roster of the consciousness 381 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:40,930 conferences which are the meeting place 382 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:43,090 for researchers who are interested in 383 00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:44,920 this you're gonna have a real divide 384 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:46,960 you're gonna have probably about a 50/50 385 00:18:49,730 --> 00:18:48,610 percent of people who are going to side 386 00:18:52,700 --> 00:18:49,740 with 387 00:18:55,990 --> 00:18:52,710 folks like Hameroff III agree that 388 00:18:58,340 --> 00:18:56,000 there's still a lot of discussion about 389 00:19:02,810 --> 00:18:58,350 about the nature of consciousness that 390 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:02,820 it's not settled and and I'm not 391 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:05,850 claiming that something might eventually 392 00:19:10,790 --> 00:19:09,330 be found where there's some immaterial 393 00:19:13,190 --> 00:19:10,800 element involved but that would be 394 00:19:17,450 --> 00:19:13,200 astounding that would mean that that the 395 00:19:21,169 --> 00:19:17,460 whole materialistic view of science of 396 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:21,179 the nature of the universe was wrong and 397 00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:22,890 that there's a duality there's something 398 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:26,880 else besides matter out there but boy to 399 00:19:31,010 --> 00:19:29,250 be able to show that they need to do 400 00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:31,020 more than just argue make these 401 00:19:35,090 --> 00:19:32,940 theoretical arguments about quantum 402 00:19:36,470 --> 00:19:35,100 mechanics and so on especially when they 403 00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:36,480 don't even know what they're talking 404 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:37,710 about when they're talking about quantum 405 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:39,570 mechanics I don't care how expert they 406 00:19:45,380 --> 00:19:42,570 might be in the mind if about what they 407 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:45,390 say about quantum mechanics is and I can 408 00:19:48,890 --> 00:19:47,370 testify as a physicist and believe me 409 00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:48,900 there and any number of other physicists 410 00:19:55,790 --> 00:19:51,780 out there max tegmark for one who could 411 00:19:57,919 --> 00:19:55,800 point out in in great mathematical 412 00:20:00,560 --> 00:19:57,929 detail why the assumptions these people 413 00:20:02,030 --> 00:20:00,570 make it wrong well III think there's a 414 00:20:06,110 --> 00:20:02,040 lot of folks that have gone down that 415 00:20:07,730 --> 00:20:06,120 path I mean this is a very hot area of 416 00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:07,740 research I don't think these guys are 417 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:10,260 off in the corner kind of doing their 418 00:20:14,419 --> 00:20:12,809 own thing without any scrutiny I mean 419 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:14,429 they're publishing and people are 420 00:20:20,419 --> 00:20:17,610 criticizing in or supporting both the 421 00:20:24,110 --> 00:20:20,429 the quantum physics aspect of it as well 422 00:20:26,140 --> 00:20:24,120 as some of the neurobiology aspect of it 423 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:26,150 you know as you mentioned ham raphson 424 00:20:29,810 --> 00:20:27,770 anesthesiologist and it's kind of 425 00:20:32,419 --> 00:20:29,820 crossing disciplines here but he 426 00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:32,429 certainly aligned himself with Nobel 427 00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:34,830 prize-winner I mean some of the top 428 00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:37,440 people in the field so but let's move on 429 00:20:41,299 --> 00:20:39,150 from that a little bit because what I 430 00:20:43,910 --> 00:20:41,309 really wanted to get with that is what 431 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:43,920 is at stake and you touched on it a 432 00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:46,710 little bit what is at stake for atheism 433 00:20:53,330 --> 00:20:49,679 with this idea of consciousness being 434 00:20:56,740 --> 00:20:53,340 more than materialism more than the mind 435 00:21:00,460 --> 00:20:56,750 being more than just the brain okay I 436 00:21:02,670 --> 00:21:00,470 know that is those who were scientists 437 00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:02,680 science really understand 438 00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:05,200 the scientific method will say if you 439 00:21:11,220 --> 00:21:07,540 know you show me the evidence for 440 00:21:14,010 --> 00:21:11,230 something beyond matter then we'll 441 00:21:16,740 --> 00:21:14,020 believe it so we're we're open to that 442 00:21:18,660 --> 00:21:16,750 it's not so much that we have any 443 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:18,670 particular state other than the state of 444 00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:20,770 determining the truth of it as best as 445 00:21:24,780 --> 00:21:23,110 we can and that's the problem these 446 00:21:29,780 --> 00:21:24,790 people are charlatans who are claiming 447 00:21:32,820 --> 00:21:29,790 that that there's evidence for a quantum 448 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:32,830 aspect of the mind that's just not true 449 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:34,690 maybe they'll find one someday we're 450 00:21:38,610 --> 00:21:36,370 open to that but they just do not have 451 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:38,620 the data to support that and they don't 452 00:21:43,169 --> 00:21:41,530 have the theory to support that and that 453 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:43,179 that's the thing that's so upsetting 454 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:45,100 about it because they were able to get 455 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:46,570 away with this because they're talking 456 00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:51,850 to audiences who are not aware of the 457 00:21:56,450 --> 00:21:53,710 science I really don't know the science 458 00:21:58,799 --> 00:21:56,460 you're not saying Christophe Kok is a 459 00:22:01,290 --> 00:21:58,809 charlatan or Stuart Hameroff is a 460 00:22:02,910 --> 00:22:01,300 charlatan since I assume right so who 461 00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:02,920 are the charlatans I know that I know 462 00:22:05,940 --> 00:22:04,780 Stanley Creek there I know there's some 463 00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:05,950 of the other people that are on the list 464 00:22:14,430 --> 00:22:10,000 of people that use you've interviewed in 465 00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:14,440 the past I saw your list and I'll tell 466 00:22:19,049 --> 00:22:16,720 you they're not part of any mainstream 467 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:19,059 that I know of so do you think Stanley 468 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:21,850 Crippler is a Charlotte absolutely okay 469 00:22:25,590 --> 00:22:23,250 fair enough 470 00:22:28,049 --> 00:22:25,600 let's approach this issue of 471 00:22:30,090 --> 00:22:28,059 consciousness from another angle and 472 00:22:31,530 --> 00:22:30,100 that is from something you talk about in 473 00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:31,540 your book and certainly something we've 474 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:34,000 talked a lot about on this show so it's 475 00:22:38,010 --> 00:22:36,010 probably going to be a real hotbed of 476 00:22:40,530 --> 00:22:38,020 discussion and that's near-death 477 00:22:42,990 --> 00:22:40,540 experience we've looked at it from both 478 00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:43,000 proponents perspective and skeptical 479 00:22:47,490 --> 00:22:45,130 perspective you covered a lot in your 480 00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:47,500 book and and here's a case where we have 481 00:22:50,820 --> 00:22:48,640 as we were just talking about the 482 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:50,830 neuroscientists coming at this question 483 00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:53,170 of mind equal brain duality from one 484 00:22:56,310 --> 00:22:54,910 angle and here you have these medical 485 00:22:58,530 --> 00:22:56,320 folks that are coming at it from another 486 00:23:01,890 --> 00:22:58,540 angle saying hey these people seem to be 487 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:01,900 dying on my hospital bed and yet they're 488 00:23:07,740 --> 00:23:04,510 coming back and they're telling us these 489 00:23:10,020 --> 00:23:07,750 stories so what is your overall take on 490 00:23:13,140 --> 00:23:10,030 the near-death experience research what 491 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:13,150 you have again it's a matter of the 492 00:23:18,910 --> 00:23:16,490 scientific evidence I have suggests 493 00:23:21,010 --> 00:23:18,920 the experiments that could be performed 494 00:23:22,510 --> 00:23:21,020 and some of them have been a law was a 495 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:22,520 version of the suggested mental claim 496 00:23:29,110 --> 00:23:26,530 that they're following my lead but a 497 00:23:36,090 --> 00:23:29,120 very simple experiment that you could do 498 00:23:41,130 --> 00:23:36,100 is is this put some random number or 499 00:23:44,980 --> 00:23:41,140 phrase up on a table over an operating 500 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:44,990 table on a counter up high above an 501 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:46,490 operating table and so when someone 502 00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:48,770 floats above has this near-death 503 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:50,390 experience where very often they match 504 00:23:54,790 --> 00:23:52,490 themselves floating above the operating 505 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:54,800 table didn't have them read this message 506 00:24:00,220 --> 00:23:56,450 and return with it and that would be 507 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:00,230 evidence that indeed they did do 508 00:24:05,620 --> 00:24:03,770 something supernatural and this has been 509 00:24:10,030 --> 00:24:05,630 tried at least a half a dozen times and 510 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:10,040 it's never worked and similarly every 511 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:13,370 other claim that's made is just that I 512 00:24:19,210 --> 00:24:16,250 had a patient has had this experience 513 00:24:21,190 --> 00:24:19,220 and makes all these claims and none of 514 00:24:24,220 --> 00:24:21,200 them are verifiable in fact you don't 515 00:24:28,140 --> 00:24:24,230 even know that the person that this 516 00:24:34,690 --> 00:24:28,150 happened during a period of what 517 00:24:37,710 --> 00:24:34,700 possible brain although you know the 518 00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:37,720 flat line of should be talked about on 519 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:42,710 their concept esophagram is just 520 00:24:47,020 --> 00:24:45,410 thinking up a signal from the outer part 521 00:24:48,820 --> 00:24:47,030 of the brain the inner part of the brain 522 00:24:51,070 --> 00:24:48,830 could still be could still be 523 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:51,080 functioning so there's no evidence that 524 00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:56,170 any of them were were in any kind of a 525 00:25:00,640 --> 00:24:59,120 true death state when they had this 526 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:00,650 experience for anymore you don't know 527 00:25:05,140 --> 00:25:03,770 that when even when their brain was 528 00:25:06,250 --> 00:25:05,150 flatlined that they were having that 529 00:25:08,650 --> 00:25:06,260 experience there's no way of knowing 530 00:25:11,049 --> 00:25:08,660 that this story that they come back with 531 00:25:13,780 --> 00:25:11,059 that occurred during that period so 532 00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:13,790 there just isn't the data to back this 533 00:25:19,660 --> 00:25:16,400 up you just have these personal 534 00:25:23,169 --> 00:25:19,670 experiences now I really admit that the 535 00:25:26,020 --> 00:25:23,179 people having the experience feel very 536 00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:26,030 profound about it very often it even 537 00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:27,860 changes their their lives because they'd 538 00:25:32,510 --> 00:25:29,520 be completely convinced that the 539 00:25:33,980 --> 00:25:32,520 after life after all yeah yeah but Vic 540 00:25:36,169 --> 00:25:33,990 we don't neither one of us care very 541 00:25:37,970 --> 00:25:36,179 much about that or that data what I do 542 00:25:39,620 --> 00:25:37,980 is come back and challenge you on some 543 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:39,630 of that other data that you're kind of 544 00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:41,970 throwing out there one is the experiment 545 00:25:46,970 --> 00:25:44,100 that you've kind of outlined this seeing 546 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:46,980 images above the bed is one that's being 547 00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:49,650 done right now by dr. Sam Varney of 548 00:25:53,660 --> 00:25:51,809 course and he's been on the show and 549 00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:53,670 we've talked to him I don't think that's 550 00:25:57,799 --> 00:25:56,370 the only experiment you could do and I 551 00:25:59,900 --> 00:25:57,809 don't think you're suggesting it's the 552 00:26:02,270 --> 00:25:59,910 only experiment you can do as a matter 553 00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:02,280 of fact we've also had on dr. penny 554 00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:04,590 Sartori who is a colleague of Sam par 555 00:26:08,980 --> 00:26:06,540 Nia and they've done an experiment 556 00:26:11,299 --> 00:26:08,990 related to that that has shown very 557 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:11,309 significant results and I think is very 558 00:26:16,370 --> 00:26:13,410 convincing is what they do is when a 559 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:16,380 patient recovers after a near-death 560 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:20,330 experience they ask him to relate their 561 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:22,650 resuscitation process what was the 562 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:24,210 process that they went through and being 563 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:26,730 resuscitated and then they compare that 564 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:29,250 to a control group of people who didn't 565 00:26:33,110 --> 00:26:31,410 have a near-death experience so this is 566 00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:33,120 another way to see whether there is 567 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:36,510 really a component of knowing during 568 00:26:41,810 --> 00:26:39,510 that state of being dead that is 569 00:26:43,820 --> 00:26:41,820 verifiable and they've found they've 570 00:26:45,410 --> 00:26:43,830 found very statistically significant 571 00:26:46,940 --> 00:26:45,420 results let me just throw in one more 572 00:26:48,770 --> 00:26:46,950 piece and then I'll let you let you 573 00:26:51,620 --> 00:26:48,780 respond to that the other part of that 574 00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:51,630 in terms of the EEG only measuring 575 00:26:57,860 --> 00:26:55,380 activity on the surface of the brain is 576 00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:57,870 something we've talked about and have 577 00:27:03,260 --> 00:26:59,760 interviewed some of the or one of the 578 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:03,270 leading EEG researchers in the world and 579 00:27:08,540 --> 00:27:05,490 it just doesn't hold up there isn't 580 00:27:10,910 --> 00:27:08,550 really any current medical explanation 581 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:10,920 for how someone could have anything 582 00:27:17,090 --> 00:27:13,410 approaching this kind of experience and 583 00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:17,100 yet have a flat EEG so if something like 584 00:27:21,770 --> 00:27:20,100 that is going on it's just highly highly 585 00:27:24,650 --> 00:27:21,780 doubtful that it is and it would totally 586 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:24,660 overturn our understanding of how the 587 00:27:28,340 --> 00:27:26,850 brain works exactly the point I was 588 00:27:30,650 --> 00:27:28,350 making with you we have no way of 589 00:27:32,810 --> 00:27:30,660 knowing that the experience that they 590 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:32,820 had occurred during the flatline they 591 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:34,410 couldn't they have no way of knowing 592 00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:37,290 that what we do we do in the penny sir 593 00:27:40,130 --> 00:27:38,820 let me just let me just make sure we're 594 00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:40,140 talking about the same thing Vic I'll 595 00:27:42,860 --> 00:27:41,550 give you a plenty chance to talk but 596 00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:42,870 let's make sure we're talking about the 597 00:27:46,510 --> 00:27:43,370 same thing 598 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:46,520 when dr. penny Sartori and dr. Peter 599 00:27:51,340 --> 00:27:48,770 fennec did that research where they 600 00:27:54,250 --> 00:27:51,350 interviewed people and asked them about 601 00:27:57,130 --> 00:27:54,260 the resuscitation process they did then 602 00:27:59,590 --> 00:27:57,140 by definition know that these people 603 00:28:02,050 --> 00:27:59,600 were their brain was severely 604 00:28:06,340 --> 00:28:02,060 compromised and yet they were able to 605 00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:06,350 accurately say the particular procedures 606 00:28:11,860 --> 00:28:09,200 that went on in their resuscitation much 607 00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:11,870 more accurately than folks who didn't 608 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:13,760 have or claimed to have that auto body 609 00:28:18,850 --> 00:28:15,650 experience that seems to me to be very 610 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:18,860 compelling evidence that they were able 611 00:28:22,990 --> 00:28:21,170 to have some recollection when their 612 00:28:24,370 --> 00:28:23,000 brain was severely compromised do you 613 00:28:26,140 --> 00:28:24,380 understand where I'm going they're also 614 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:26,150 Jan Holden has also done a similar 615 00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:30,410 research along those lines totally 616 00:28:35,170 --> 00:28:32,960 unconvincing totally unconvincing they 617 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:35,180 have no way of knowing that they just 618 00:28:39,850 --> 00:28:38,330 have their own ideas about about how the 619 00:28:41,980 --> 00:28:39,860 brain works what they don't know enough 620 00:28:45,340 --> 00:28:41,990 about the brain to say that it was 621 00:28:47,230 --> 00:28:45,350 impossible for a person to have some 622 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:47,240 knowledge of what was going on some 623 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:49,370 awareness of what was going on after all 624 00:28:53,470 --> 00:28:51,050 that was happening to them right there 625 00:28:57,070 --> 00:28:53,480 on the operating table they were having 626 00:28:59,650 --> 00:28:57,080 an X they were having a sensory input 627 00:29:01,510 --> 00:28:59,660 all all well that that was happening I 628 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:01,520 don't see how they can say that was 629 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:04,010 impossible well because their medical 630 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:06,770 experts Vic I mean it totally defies our 631 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:08,570 medical understanding of how the brain 632 00:29:13,570 --> 00:29:10,730 works I mean take another guy like Penn 633 00:29:17,230 --> 00:29:13,580 van LOM he's a cardiologist for 20 years 634 00:29:19,630 --> 00:29:17,240 he understands what happens to the brain 635 00:29:22,750 --> 00:29:19,640 what happens with his patients when they 636 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:22,760 undergo resuscitation and he'll tell you 637 00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:25,250 and anyone who studied brain science 638 00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,110 will tell you that this is not 639 00:29:33,340 --> 00:29:29,360 consistent with what we'd expect people 640 00:29:34,810 --> 00:29:33,350 to be able to process or recall so we're 641 00:29:37,810 --> 00:29:34,820 really talking about something that is 642 00:29:41,050 --> 00:29:37,820 completely outside of our current 643 00:29:47,530 --> 00:29:41,060 understanding of how the brain works do 644 00:29:50,170 --> 00:29:47,540 you acknowledge that or no maybe they 645 00:29:52,150 --> 00:29:50,180 will but currently we don't understand 646 00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:52,160 it so currently we have to I mean I 647 00:29:56,140 --> 00:29:53,600 think we have to deal with what we have 648 00:29:56,590 --> 00:29:56,150 we can't project into the future and and 649 00:29:58,420 --> 00:29:56,600 get 650 00:29:59,500 --> 00:29:58,430 these promissory notes that someday will 651 00:30:01,900 --> 00:29:59,510 understand it that's why it's 652 00:30:05,770 --> 00:30:01,910 unconvincing because they can't they 653 00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:05,780 can't demonstrate any any scientific 654 00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:09,310 fact any observable fact that they can 655 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:13,910 that they can show falsifies falsify is 656 00:30:19,660 --> 00:30:17,090 the hypothesis of a purely material 657 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:19,670 brain that's what they have to do it's a 658 00:30:27,010 --> 00:30:23,090 very tough task I agree but to to claim 659 00:30:29,890 --> 00:30:27,020 that we have some aspect to existence 660 00:30:32,590 --> 00:30:29,900 sickos beyond the purely material is 661 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:32,600 that extraordinary claim and only only 662 00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:36,010 the most extraordinary evidence could 663 00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:39,200 falsify that claim and this is so far 664 00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:40,760 from that just giving these guys 665 00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:43,520 opinions that all I don't know I don't 666 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:45,200 understand that so therefore it must be 667 00:30:51,460 --> 00:30:49,010 it must be supernatural that is a silly 668 00:30:54,370 --> 00:30:51,470 god of the gaps argument that should not 669 00:31:00,840 --> 00:30:54,380 even be discussed because it's not it's 670 00:31:03,340 --> 00:31:00,850 not it's not science it's speculation I 671 00:31:07,510 --> 00:31:03,350 gotta say I wonder if you're really 672 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:07,520 being fair and dispassionate with regard 673 00:31:11,710 --> 00:31:09,410 to really looking at this data you know 674 00:31:13,570 --> 00:31:11,720 when I was reading your book one of the 675 00:31:16,330 --> 00:31:13,580 costs that just jumped out at me was 676 00:31:18,250 --> 00:31:16,340 from Susan Blackmore near-death 677 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:18,260 experience skeptic and someone we've had 678 00:31:23,260 --> 00:31:20,330 on the show a couple times and the quote 679 00:31:26,740 --> 00:31:23,270 from your book is that Susan having 680 00:31:29,170 --> 00:31:26,750 reviewed all the NDE evidence concluded 681 00:31:32,350 --> 00:31:29,180 that none of it holds up to scientific 682 00:31:33,940 --> 00:31:32,360 scrutiny and this to me kind of harkens 683 00:31:35,620 --> 00:31:33,950 back to the to the first part of our 684 00:31:37,650 --> 00:31:35,630 discussion we're having where we really 685 00:31:39,910 --> 00:31:37,660 have to have clear thinking and 686 00:31:42,910 --> 00:31:39,920 dispassionately cut through all the bull 687 00:31:46,090 --> 00:31:42,920 I mean I had Blackmore on the show in 688 00:31:49,030 --> 00:31:46,100 2010 and here is what she told me about 689 00:31:51,730 --> 00:31:49,040 her near-death experience research I 690 00:31:53,860 --> 00:31:51,740 gave all of this stuff up so many years 691 00:31:55,750 --> 00:31:53,870 ago if you're a researcher in the field 692 00:31:58,030 --> 00:31:55,760 that behooves you to read as much as you 693 00:32:00,250 --> 00:31:58,040 can about the best work otherwise you 694 00:32:03,490 --> 00:32:00,260 can't be a researcher in the field I am 695 00:32:06,850 --> 00:32:03,500 NOT a researcher in the field I have not 696 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:06,860 been for a long time so why would we 697 00:32:13,070 --> 00:32:10,410 rely on Susan Blackmore 698 00:32:16,340 --> 00:32:13,080 quoted again and again and again by NDE 699 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:16,350 skeptics as opposed to someone like dr. 700 00:32:21,140 --> 00:32:19,650 Jan Holden who is the editor along with 701 00:32:25,090 --> 00:32:21,150 Bruce Grayson of the handbook of 702 00:32:27,410 --> 00:32:25,100 near-death experiences has looked at 65 703 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:27,420 peer-reviewed near-death experience 704 00:32:33,290 --> 00:32:29,850 studies from labs all over the world why 705 00:32:35,810 --> 00:32:33,300 would we prefer black war over Jan 706 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:35,820 Holden I referred to in the book did you 707 00:32:40,970 --> 00:32:38,250 see that I said prefer not refer you 708 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:40,980 refer to her but you did you preferred 709 00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:43,530 it hasn't been the evidence you talk 710 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:45,120 about the experts what about Kenneth 711 00:32:50,660 --> 00:32:47,850 ring I mean you're not giving us fair 712 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:50,670 representation of what's in what's in my 713 00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:53,850 book on this subject I I go through that 714 00:32:59,720 --> 00:32:57,600 I go through in great detail these fears 715 00:33:02,270 --> 00:32:59,730 reports like I mentioned that handbook 716 00:33:05,330 --> 00:33:02,280 and I refer to it in any number of 717 00:33:07,130 --> 00:33:05,340 places so no Vic I'm not saying that you 718 00:33:09,470 --> 00:33:07,140 don't mention the handbook but you don't 719 00:33:11,150 --> 00:33:09,480 mention Jan Holden's work in in a 720 00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:11,160 favorable light you say it doesn't hold 721 00:33:17,810 --> 00:33:14,310 up to scrutiny that's what you say well 722 00:33:20,750 --> 00:33:17,820 I mean Jan Holden concludes that nd E's 723 00:33:23,420 --> 00:33:20,760 are real and highly suggestive that 724 00:33:25,850 --> 00:33:23,430 consciousness survives death that's Jan 725 00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:25,860 Holden's position after having reviewed 726 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:27,840 all the science and you disagree with 727 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:29,970 that that's okay I'm just saying well I 728 00:33:34,490 --> 00:33:32,130 don't see that I misrepresenting your 729 00:33:40,490 --> 00:33:34,500 position but correct me I'm open to that 730 00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:40,500 no I don't recall so I I recall quoting 731 00:33:45,260 --> 00:33:42,960 her someplace where she says that we 732 00:33:48,020 --> 00:33:45,270 still are not convinced I have to find 733 00:33:52,010 --> 00:33:48,030 it for you Phebe's if I may take it I've 734 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:52,020 had Jan Holden on the show interviewed 735 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:53,010 her at length 736 00:33:58,370 --> 00:33:56,130 she's quite clearly convinced that 737 00:34:00,920 --> 00:33:58,380 near-death experience research is 738 00:34:05,300 --> 00:34:00,930 suggestive of consciousness surviving 739 00:34:08,409 --> 00:34:05,310 death the basic point and that is that 740 00:34:11,870 --> 00:34:08,419 if someone had the near-death experience 741 00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:11,880 where they really did go into another 742 00:34:17,630 --> 00:34:14,550 realm of some sort they should return 743 00:34:23,820 --> 00:34:17,640 with some information that they couldn't 744 00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:23,830 possibly known not experience well 745 00:34:28,170 --> 00:34:26,110 operating table and their senses were 746 00:34:30,930 --> 00:34:28,180 still operating the occasions that is it 747 00:34:34,050 --> 00:34:30,940 as an example now something that they 748 00:34:37,350 --> 00:34:34,060 couldn't possibly have done and yet no 749 00:34:39,300 --> 00:34:37,360 one has so I don't understand how they 750 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:39,310 think however they can claim anything 751 00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:41,170 except a they would like to like to 752 00:34:44,370 --> 00:34:42,730 believe and that's their what they'd be 753 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:44,380 very famous of course if they could show 754 00:34:50,700 --> 00:34:48,450 that there was a world beyond matter but 755 00:34:53,310 --> 00:34:50,710 where they done that I don't think 756 00:34:56,820 --> 00:34:53,320 they've done much well this is when we 757 00:34:59,220 --> 00:34:56,830 get into debate I guess about the data 758 00:35:01,590 --> 00:34:59,230 and what is the data and how we should 759 00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:01,600 look at the data and I guess I just 760 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:03,760 focusing on one other specific because 761 00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:06,610 in your book you talk about dr. Jeff 762 00:35:11,550 --> 00:35:09,310 Long someone else who we've had on this 763 00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:11,560 and who wrote a book very popular in New 764 00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:13,440 York Times bestselling book about 765 00:35:18,270 --> 00:35:16,240 evidence of near-death experience he 766 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:18,280 firmly concludes that it's highly 767 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:20,410 suggestive that consciousness survives 768 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:24,370 death and your criticism of long was 769 00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:27,370 that hey these are all anecdotes 770 00:35:33,540 --> 00:35:30,310 he's just collecting these stories if 771 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:33,550 you will and what I thought again this 772 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:35,890 is a kind of a specific debate that we 773 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:37,810 could really have some substance to and 774 00:35:42,750 --> 00:35:40,450 that's that Jeff long counters that 775 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:42,760 claim and he gets that that argument 776 00:35:47,220 --> 00:35:45,130 against him a lot and he says look you 777 00:35:50,730 --> 00:35:47,230 know these kind of medical surveys that 778 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:50,740 I did are really the bedrock of medicine 779 00:35:55,410 --> 00:35:53,050 that's the first line that we do and 780 00:35:57,650 --> 00:35:55,420 finding out what's going on so don't 781 00:36:00,390 --> 00:35:57,660 criticize that these are surveys and 782 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:00,400 moreover II says don't criticize that 783 00:36:05,790 --> 00:36:03,370 their online surveys I can show you and 784 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:05,800 he does on his website a bunch of 785 00:36:10,050 --> 00:36:07,570 peer-reviewed articles that suggests 786 00:36:13,020 --> 00:36:10,060 that an online survey is no less 787 00:36:15,900 --> 00:36:13,030 reliable than a medical survey you might 788 00:36:18,270 --> 00:36:15,910 fill out your doctor's office so again 789 00:36:20,490 --> 00:36:18,280 don't we have to be fair and looking at 790 00:36:23,010 --> 00:36:20,500 that data and say hey Jeff Long's 791 00:36:25,980 --> 00:36:23,020 compiled all these surveys highly 792 00:36:28,830 --> 00:36:25,990 suggestive of near-death experience 793 00:36:31,350 --> 00:36:28,840 being a legitimate case of consciousness 794 00:36:34,710 --> 00:36:31,360 surviving a severely compromised brain 795 00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:34,720 what does it take to kind of meet that 796 00:36:39,650 --> 00:36:36,960 standard that we need to 797 00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:39,660 look at this mind-body relationship or 798 00:36:45,530 --> 00:36:41,460 this mind brain relationship different 799 00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:45,540 look yes I said an email exchange to you 800 00:36:49,850 --> 00:36:47,910 it's really very simple we're making it 801 00:36:52,820 --> 00:36:49,860 too complicated while he has his 802 00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:52,830 anecdotes if he had one anecdote where a 803 00:36:57,110 --> 00:36:55,440 person returned with with provable 804 00:37:01,280 --> 00:36:57,120 information that they could not have 805 00:37:03,650 --> 00:37:01,290 known then that we could change our mind 806 00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:03,660 about that let me I found a section that 807 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:07,110 I'm talking about it's on page 233 of my 808 00:37:18,290 --> 00:37:11,010 book where I talk about Holden and she 809 00:37:21,650 --> 00:37:18,300 took she talks about these EVPs 810 00:37:26,180 --> 00:37:21,660 how is she define it apparently long 811 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:26,190 physical very ditional NDE perception 812 00:37:31,580 --> 00:37:28,890 AVP that's something that you can verify 813 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:31,590 in other words there are there 814 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:33,330 additional perceptions that apparently 815 00:37:38,350 --> 00:37:35,610 could not have been the result of 816 00:37:43,820 --> 00:37:38,360 interference from normal sensory 817 00:37:46,340 --> 00:37:43,830 processes so then in the handbook she 818 00:37:48,730 --> 00:37:46,350 talks about the attempts to verify AVP 819 00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:48,740 chapter 9 and the handbook have done 820 00:37:54,010 --> 00:37:51,780 near-death experiences and there's where 821 00:37:56,750 --> 00:37:54,020 I talk about the setup at the table she 822 00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,760 don'ts that this Citroen ideal situation 823 00:38:00,680 --> 00:37:58,320 is difficult to achieve with the 824 00:38:02,090 --> 00:38:00,690 operating room staff often gloom Singh 825 00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:02,100 the target information is thus 826 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:06,510 compromising the protocol once more they 827 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:08,370 have more important matters to do to do 828 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:11,010 so she could only report five studies 829 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:12,930 that were conducted with proper controls 830 00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:16,890 she concludes the bottom line a findings 831 00:38:21,980 --> 00:38:18,390 from these five studies is quite 832 00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:21,990 disappointing no researcher has 833 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:25,040 succeeded at capturing even one case of 834 00:38:30,470 --> 00:38:28,410 AVP that's quoted gentleman from her 835 00:38:33,290 --> 00:38:30,480 book and then later on she talks about 836 00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:33,300 receiving an email from Kenneth ring now 837 00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:36,660 Kenneth ring is a researcher in NDE 838 00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:38,910 experiences long term with researcher 839 00:38:45,170 --> 00:38:40,950 all these people incidentally would 840 00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:45,180 really love to discover a near-death 841 00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:46,710 experiences he's worth Kenneth Springs 842 00:38:49,970 --> 00:38:49,230 said there was so much anecdotal 843 00:38:53,450 --> 00:38:49,980 evidence 844 00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:53,460 suggests experiences can at least 845 00:39:01,010 --> 00:38:58,050 sometimes perceive very visually during 846 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:01,020 nve's but isn't it true that well it's 847 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:03,810 time has it been a single piece of a 848 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:09,090 very dish if that perception reported by 849 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:11,850 an NDE under controlled conditions I 850 00:39:15,620 --> 00:39:14,130 mean 30 years later it's still an old 851 00:39:19,010 --> 00:39:15,630 class as far as we know 852 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:19,020 yes excuses excuses I know but really 853 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:21,450 what you expected more than a few such 854 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:25,890 cases at least by now that's in that 855 00:39:33,140 --> 00:39:29,810 handbook to be this that's convincing in 856 00:39:35,630 --> 00:39:33,150 until somebody comes up with again a 857 00:39:38,359 --> 00:39:35,640 very simple result they leave just come 858 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:38,369 back with some information that they 859 00:39:43,340 --> 00:39:40,530 couldn't possibly had known and that's 860 00:39:45,290 --> 00:39:43,350 evidence that's evidence and that'd be 861 00:39:47,450 --> 00:39:45,300 worth considering and studying further 862 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:47,460 and so on there right now that is not 863 00:39:54,580 --> 00:39:52,170 happen and after 30 years I think we 864 00:39:57,500 --> 00:39:54,590 could we can really put clue that that 865 00:40:01,099 --> 00:39:57,510 that's just something that's going on in 866 00:40:04,490 --> 00:40:01,109 the brain and we should stop even as we 867 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:04,500 sing so much breath already I I think 868 00:40:08,060 --> 00:40:05,970 you kind of contradicted yourself in 869 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:08,070 that very last sentence but first of all 870 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:10,530 what what jane holden i think is saying 871 00:40:16,130 --> 00:40:12,930 there and what a lot of NDE researchers 872 00:40:19,609 --> 00:40:16,140 have said is why are we pushing towards 873 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:19,619 this sampar Nia let's see if there's 874 00:40:25,010 --> 00:40:22,290 images above the bed thing when the 875 00:40:28,940 --> 00:40:25,020 pilot studies we've done haven't been 876 00:40:30,620 --> 00:40:28,950 successful so I think it's you may be 877 00:40:33,020 --> 00:40:30,630 misinterpreting what she's saying 878 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:33,030 overall about her impression of the 879 00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:35,130 near-death experience research because 880 00:40:40,070 --> 00:40:37,710 it's very positive again I've had around 881 00:40:43,010 --> 00:40:40,080 the show but we can I'll be happy to 882 00:40:45,230 --> 00:40:43,020 follow up with her and after and make 883 00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:45,240 clear about that particular quote she's 884 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:47,760 making but clearly she is a near-death 885 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:49,530 experience proponent in that she 886 00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:51,450 believes that it's highly suggestive 887 00:40:56,690 --> 00:40:54,510 that consciousness survives death and as 888 00:40:59,390 --> 00:40:56,700 far as Kenneth rang Kenneth ring is also 889 00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,400 a proponent of near-death experience 890 00:41:03,259 --> 00:41:01,440 research he's not a skeptic so I think 891 00:41:05,659 --> 00:41:03,269 to pick out he 892 00:41:07,939 --> 00:41:05,669 is critique of some of the work that's 893 00:41:10,159 --> 00:41:07,949 being done I'm sure that's legitimate 894 00:41:11,989 --> 00:41:10,169 and I'm sure that's correctly quoted as 895 00:41:15,259 --> 00:41:11,999 you say but it doesn't represent his 896 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:15,269 overall opinion of the research and and 897 00:41:19,069 --> 00:41:17,249 then as to your last point that's all we 898 00:41:21,799 --> 00:41:19,079 can do Vic at the end of the day is we 899 00:41:24,289 --> 00:41:21,809 can look to the best researchers and see 900 00:41:26,149 --> 00:41:24,299 what their conclusions are and unlike 901 00:41:29,089 --> 00:41:26,159 the consciousness research that we're 902 00:41:32,329 --> 00:41:29,099 talking about Hameroff and [\h__\h] here 903 00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:32,339 there is virtually no near-death 904 00:41:36,799 --> 00:41:34,529 experience researcher who has looked 905 00:41:39,009 --> 00:41:36,809 into the field extensively who has done 906 00:41:42,169 --> 00:41:39,019 the research and has concluded that 907 00:41:43,759 --> 00:41:42,179 near-death experience isn't what we're 908 00:41:45,380 --> 00:41:43,769 saying here I mean I don't think you can 909 00:41:47,839 --> 00:41:45,390 point to one and that's why we wind up 910 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:47,849 with references like Susan Blackmore who 911 00:41:52,130 --> 00:41:50,130 who are isn't even in the field because 912 00:41:55,189 --> 00:41:52,140 you really have to search to find any 913 00:41:57,169 --> 00:41:55,199 NDE skeptic that has any bona fides in 914 00:42:01,370 --> 00:41:57,179 terms of doing NDE research are you 915 00:42:03,259 --> 00:42:01,380 aware of any I I mean we got Jeff long 916 00:42:05,209 --> 00:42:03,269 we got pin Val mama we got all these 917 00:42:07,579 --> 00:42:05,219 folks none of them are scam believers is 918 00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:07,589 what you do who would desperately want 919 00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:10,079 us to believe that there's an heir to 920 00:42:15,649 --> 00:42:12,569 life and all of that I mean the Pope 921 00:42:19,459 --> 00:42:15,659 does too and just because the pope that 922 00:42:21,169 --> 00:42:19,469 believes in an afterlife and thinks he 923 00:42:23,209 --> 00:42:21,179 has all kinds of evidence for it that 924 00:42:25,519 --> 00:42:23,219 doesn't mean he does and these people 925 00:42:28,629 --> 00:42:25,529 don't either they just don't but they 926 00:42:31,639 --> 00:42:28,639 have not made a case and then maybe you 927 00:42:34,159 --> 00:42:31,649 can't go you say we should go to the 928 00:42:35,779 --> 00:42:34,169 experts in this video believe me there 929 00:42:38,139 --> 00:42:35,789 are a lot of experts in all kinds of 930 00:42:40,789 --> 00:42:38,149 fields who believe stuff look at all the 931 00:42:42,349 --> 00:42:40,799 parapsychologists who believe in ESP you 932 00:42:44,329 --> 00:42:42,359 say all their experts we should believe 933 00:42:46,339 --> 00:42:44,339 that well they have to convince the rest 934 00:42:49,339 --> 00:42:46,349 of the scientific community that's the 935 00:42:51,499 --> 00:42:49,349 key and any discovery look let's talk 936 00:42:55,549 --> 00:42:51,509 about the Higgs boson for example and in 937 00:42:56,959 --> 00:42:55,559 my field the way if you look at the way 938 00:42:58,909 --> 00:42:56,969 that experiment was done by two 939 00:43:02,659 --> 00:42:58,919 independent groups the beauty of that 940 00:43:05,899 --> 00:43:02,669 the money spent the hours and hours 941 00:43:07,669 --> 00:43:05,909 thousands of people involved and and 942 00:43:09,859 --> 00:43:07,679 they came up with evidence that just 943 00:43:11,899 --> 00:43:09,869 didn't just convince themselves that 944 00:43:15,830 --> 00:43:11,909 convinced the whole scientific community 945 00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:15,840 that there was this marvelous 946 00:43:20,660 --> 00:43:18,000 article that had been predicted fifty 947 00:43:23,540 --> 00:43:20,670 years ago and was now found where do you 948 00:43:25,100 --> 00:43:23,550 see anything comparable to that in this 949 00:43:28,130 --> 00:43:25,110 line of research you have a bunch of 950 00:43:29,450 --> 00:43:28,140 people who you're saying oh they're 951 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:29,460 experts we should listen to those 952 00:43:33,140 --> 00:43:31,170 experts well I don't listen to those 953 00:43:35,570 --> 00:43:33,150 experts I know I'm not gonna listen to 954 00:43:39,650 --> 00:43:35,580 what they say until they demonstrate to 955 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:39,660 me as a scientist with 50 years of 956 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:42,330 experience and research they show me 957 00:43:50,090 --> 00:43:46,650 some data that convinces me then then 958 00:43:51,530 --> 00:43:50,100 they can start talking to the rest of 959 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:51,540 the community and they convince the rest 960 00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:52,890 of it we need then they have a real 961 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:54,960 discovery that's worth mentioning up 962 00:43:59,690 --> 00:43:56,930 until now they have not achieved that 963 00:44:02,180 --> 00:43:59,700 but by those standards Vic how would we 964 00:44:04,580 --> 00:44:02,190 ever know oh that's the one thing that 965 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:04,590 gets me about the NDE skeptics is is 966 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:06,530 there seems to be some kind of edge 967 00:44:11,390 --> 00:44:08,970 associated with it it you seem to be 968 00:44:13,820 --> 00:44:11,400 suggesting that these NDE researchers 969 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:13,830 are coming at this work with some kind 970 00:44:17,110 --> 00:44:15,450 of bias is that what you're suggesting 971 00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:17,120 that they're trying to sneak 972 00:44:21,950 --> 00:44:19,500 Christianity into the backdoor science 973 00:44:23,660 --> 00:44:21,960 that's not my read of these people is 974 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:23,670 that where you think they're coming at I 975 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:26,490 don't know they just have a good this 976 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:28,530 the rest of the community and then shall 977 00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:30,330 they do I mean you're supposed to be a 978 00:44:35,720 --> 00:44:32,160 skeptic you should be skeptical of them 979 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:35,730 too rather than defending them you they 980 00:44:38,990 --> 00:44:37,170 should have to convince you they should 981 00:44:43,130 --> 00:44:39,000 have to convince James Randi they should 982 00:44:44,870 --> 00:44:43,140 have to convince you know Paul Kurtz and 983 00:44:46,580 --> 00:44:44,880 and all the other skeptics out there 984 00:44:49,370 --> 00:44:46,590 when they do then they will have one 985 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:49,380 there one there case but until they do 986 00:44:57,530 --> 00:44:51,930 until you convince the skeptics the most 987 00:44:59,920 --> 00:44:57,540 skeptical you don't have you can't claim 988 00:45:02,180 --> 00:44:59,930 that you've made it a major discovery 989 00:45:04,940 --> 00:45:02,190 well they've convinced me but they 990 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:04,950 obviously haven't convinced you so Vic 991 00:45:09,380 --> 00:45:06,690 tell us some more about what's going on 992 00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:09,390 with you tell us about your website what 993 00:45:14,030 --> 00:45:11,910 people can find there and about anything 994 00:45:21,820 --> 00:45:14,040 else we need to know about this book God 995 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:21,830 and the folly of faith a lot of links to 996 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:24,210 information about these books and the 997 00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:27,690 reviews of the books and various claims 998 00:45:33,540 --> 00:45:29,110 they have 999 00:45:35,220 --> 00:45:33,550 I think 11 books now and the website can 1000 00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:35,230 give you that information I don't have 1001 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:37,870 to read off the the address of the 1002 00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:39,610 website people can easily find it by 1003 00:45:46,410 --> 00:45:42,880 just googling my name Victor J Stenger 1004 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:46,420 and I'll easily find the website right 1005 00:45:49,890 --> 00:45:48,010 and we'll link to it from this podcast 1006 00:45:52,410 --> 00:45:49,900 and I also want to alert people there's 1007 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:52,420 a number of interesting fascinating 1008 00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:54,370 youtubes that have been produced of you 1009 00:45:59,880 --> 00:45:57,130 as well so people can see as well as a 1010 00:46:02,100 --> 00:45:59,890 read about you and you blog pretty often 1011 00:46:05,730 --> 00:46:02,110 at Huffington Post as well right yes I 1012 00:46:08,700 --> 00:46:05,740 write blogs off and on for traffic in 1013 00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:08,710 post in fact I'm working on one right 1014 00:46:14,220 --> 00:46:10,510 now or I want to talk about this 1015 00:46:19,230 --> 00:46:14,230 evolution business the different views 1016 00:46:21,390 --> 00:46:19,240 of God guided versus naturalistic f 1017 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:21,400 evolution I'm working on that right now 1018 00:46:26,580 --> 00:46:23,290 I have another book that's gonna be out 1019 00:46:30,510 --> 00:46:26,590 next year early next year called God and 1020 00:46:33,570 --> 00:46:30,520 the atom which goes back to the early 1021 00:46:34,890 --> 00:46:33,580 atomists Democritus and so on and works 1022 00:46:38,670 --> 00:46:34,900 its way all the way up to the higgs 1023 00:46:40,650 --> 00:46:38,680 boson to show how how this notion of the 1024 00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:40,660 world being made of matter and nothing 1025 00:46:49,050 --> 00:46:46,000 else has been solidly confirmed by by 1026 00:46:51,780 --> 00:46:49,060 modern physics and that goes back at 1027 00:46:54,090 --> 00:46:51,790 2,500 years the ova edge that creates 1028 00:46:56,130 --> 00:46:54,100 the whole history of that of that idea 1029 00:46:58,560 --> 00:46:56,140 through to the ancient Greeks who 1030 00:47:01,050 --> 00:46:58,570 through the Dark Ages on to the 1031 00:47:02,370 --> 00:47:01,060 Renaissance and the Scientific 1032 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:02,380 Revolution and then all the way up 1033 00:47:07,530 --> 00:47:05,530 through to the current time with the 1034 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:07,540 latest kind of confirmation of the 1035 00:47:15,660 --> 00:47:12,090 standard model of particles and fields 1036 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:15,670 so I hope people will take a look at 1037 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:17,770 them right great well we'll certainly 1038 00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:20,050 look forward to that and thanks again 1039 00:47:23,970 --> 00:47:22,240 it's been great talking to you and kind 1040 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:23,980 of hashing some of this stuff out thanks 1041 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:25,690 for joining me today on skeptic oh sure 1042 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:30,010 good talk thanks again to dr. Stanger 1043 00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:31,690 for joining me today on skeptic oh I 1044 00:47:36,450 --> 00:47:33,730 certainly appreciate his willingness to 1045 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:36,460 engage in these topics and I think it 1046 00:47:41,580 --> 00:47:39,610 also demonstrates why so few skeptics 1047 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:41,590 and atheists are really willing to 1048 00:47:44,510 --> 00:47:42,690 engage 1049 00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:44,520 think they have a very difficult road to 1050 00:47:48,980 --> 00:47:47,040 hoe when confronted with the data and 1051 00:47:51,339 --> 00:47:48,990 it's not surprising that they're 1052 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:51,349 reluctant many times to do so 1053 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:53,490 interesting little PostScript to this 1054 00:47:59,809 --> 00:47:56,490 interview so a couple of weeks after the 1055 00:48:01,609 --> 00:47:59,819 interview Vick sent me an email talking 1056 00:48:04,940 --> 00:48:01,619 about various things sent me a link to 1057 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:04,950 his eben Alexander post on Huffington 1058 00:48:09,140 --> 00:48:06,930 Post and also said hey would you edit 1059 00:48:11,450 --> 00:48:09,150 out the part about Stanley Crippler that 1060 00:48:13,370 --> 00:48:11,460 slipped out and I really thought about 1061 00:48:15,290 --> 00:48:13,380 that and my first inclination was to do 1062 00:48:17,510 --> 00:48:15,300 it then I talked to a couple of friends 1063 00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:17,520 advisers and and kind of wondered what 1064 00:48:21,710 --> 00:48:20,160 to do and I emailed back doctor stinger 1065 00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:21,720 and I said you know you said in your 1066 00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:25,200 email that it slipped out and yet you 1067 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:27,569 brought it up in the email exchange to 1068 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:29,490 me initially I wasn't gonna bring it up 1069 00:48:33,470 --> 00:48:31,290 in the show then you brought it up in 1070 00:48:35,870 --> 00:48:33,480 the show with regard to Stuart Hameroff 1071 00:48:37,450 --> 00:48:35,880 which if you listen he's really calling 1072 00:48:39,770 --> 00:48:37,460 Hameroff and caulked 1073 00:48:41,630 --> 00:48:39,780 charlatans and I said to him you know I 1074 00:48:43,130 --> 00:48:41,640 kind of rescued for you from that and I 1075 00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:43,140 said that's not what you meant to say 1076 00:48:47,420 --> 00:48:45,839 right and then you see them insist that 1077 00:48:50,030 --> 00:48:47,430 I'm making your point and saying these 1078 00:48:51,740 --> 00:48:50,040 guys are charlatans so I said you know 1079 00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:51,750 I'm really not inclined to edit that out 1080 00:48:58,730 --> 00:48:55,200 and his response to that email was very 1081 00:49:00,500 --> 00:48:58,740 telling to he is extremely nasty and he 1082 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:00,510 said you know you want to start a war I 1083 00:49:06,170 --> 00:49:03,930 have more ammunition and all the rest of 1084 00:49:08,569 --> 00:49:06,180 this does I think it is very very 1085 00:49:11,630 --> 00:49:08,579 telling as the whole interview is in 1086 00:49:14,599 --> 00:49:11,640 terms of what's represented by that 1087 00:49:16,550 --> 00:49:14,609 other position that atheist sceptical 1088 00:49:18,589 --> 00:49:16,560 position and as you see in the previous 1089 00:49:21,170 --> 00:49:18,599 shows we've done it's a pretty uniform 1090 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:21,180 position Vick stinger is not really an 1091 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:23,490 exception other than he's willing to 1092 00:49:27,410 --> 00:49:25,530 engage with people and talk about it and 1093 00:49:30,079 --> 00:49:27,420 turns out really being pretty open about 1094 00:49:32,030 --> 00:49:30,089 what his position is so without a couple 1095 00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:32,040 of questions to tee up from this 1096 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:34,140 interview the first we have to get it 1097 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:38,250 out there is what is the basis for this 1098 00:49:43,940 --> 00:49:41,010 kind of argument on the part of fix 1099 00:49:46,700 --> 00:49:43,950 tender stanley krypter charlatans fake 1100 00:49:48,740 --> 00:49:46,710 fraud where does that come from is there 1101 00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:48,750 any merit to it at all so that's 1102 00:49:53,900 --> 00:49:50,910 question number one question number two 1103 00:49:56,180 --> 00:49:53,910 has to do with near-death experience 1104 00:49:58,250 --> 00:49:56,190 science research literature now 1105 00:50:00,440 --> 00:49:58,260 I gave you a little sampling for what 1106 00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:00,450 Vic has represented in his book in terms 1107 00:50:04,609 --> 00:50:02,400 of his take on near-death experience 1108 00:50:07,339 --> 00:50:04,619 research I don't think it's very strong 1109 00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:07,349 I think it's unbelievably weak when 1110 00:50:12,650 --> 00:50:09,359 you're really dissected and I tried to 1111 00:50:15,230 --> 00:50:12,660 present that in the show but has anyone 1112 00:50:18,050 --> 00:50:15,240 from The Skeptical / atheist community 1113 00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:18,060 done a better job at least he gets the 1114 00:50:22,130 --> 00:50:20,400 references right I mean when we talked 1115 00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:22,140 to Caroline watt in her published 1116 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:23,730 peer-reviewed paper she couldn't even 1117 00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:25,530 get their references to von Lama's paper 1118 00:50:29,450 --> 00:50:27,569 right so I don't think this is great 1119 00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:29,460 work on the part of stinger but this is 1120 00:50:33,620 --> 00:50:31,530 representative of really the best that's 1121 00:50:35,900 --> 00:50:33,630 being put out there by the skeptical 1122 00:50:37,849 --> 00:50:35,910 atheist you know Sam Harris we talked to 1123 00:50:40,550 --> 00:50:37,859 him last weekend and he claims to know 1124 00:50:43,220 --> 00:50:40,560 the NDE literature I think this is the 1125 00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:43,230 literature that Sam Paris knows I think 1126 00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:44,910 this is the literature that Steven 1127 00:50:49,370 --> 00:50:47,280 novella knows and the reason why I think 1128 00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:49,380 they run so scared when they're pressed 1129 00:50:55,940 --> 00:50:52,800 on defending their understanding of NDE 1130 00:50:59,780 --> 00:50:55,950 science is because they know deep down 1131 00:51:01,849 --> 00:50:59,790 that this is very weak stuff so what is 1132 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:01,859 your take on Victor Stenger's 1133 00:51:07,250 --> 00:51:04,050 understanding of near-death experience 1134 00:51:09,079 --> 00:51:07,260 science so let me know your thoughts of 1135 00:51:13,370 --> 00:51:09,089 course the place to connect with me is 1136 00:51:15,740 --> 00:51:13,380 on skeptic Oh calm that's ske pti ke o 1137 00:51:17,930 --> 00:51:15,750 you can link up to our forum leave a 1138 00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:17,940 comment right there on the website you 1139 00:51:21,770 --> 00:51:20,250 can also send me an email or ping me on 1140 00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:21,780 Facebook well that's going to do it for 1141 00:51:26,690 --> 00:51:23,670 this episode couple of interesting shows 1142 00:51:28,940 --> 00:51:26,700 coming up always more in the hopper stay